Sabian HHX prototype 20" flat ride

[Magnus]

Hello all,

I have lately awakened to the sweetness of handhammering of the Turkish order... Anyway, as I live in a nook and cranny of the world where cymbal supply is pretty low and it isn't always possible to see large selections of interesting cymbals at one place for tryouts... Well, yes, I do have to resort on buying pies from soundfiles and descriptions. However, this usually works out quite well.

I now have the option to buy a flat ride (which I am looking for, since I've never had one and think it may come in handy) of the above specification. Problem is, I've never owned nor played a Sabian. What is there to say of them?

I've heard a file of the cymbal, it sounds very dark, with lots of stock def, and is crashable too. Weight is 1834 grams.

Any input is welcome.

/Magnus

[ThomasL]

Hi Magnus,
I have two 22" Sabian HHX prototypes, both from the 2004 vault tour. One has kind of a TW/Bill Stewart character, but is lower in pitch and less trashy than my Johan nefertiti, which makes it great for smaller rooms where the Johan is too dominating. I once sent you a gig recording where I used this ride and you said you liked it

The other one is more of a modern mainstream ride that I have been using for funk/soul/party music with my big band. Both rides have great bells (solid, but fairly low pitched and dry), but this isn't very relavant in the case of you flat ride...

[Will]

I am still madly in love with my 22" HHX Legacy Heavy, and I've heard many, many HHX's that sounded beautiful, very few that I wouldn't have a blast playing on someone else's kit, and none that stank. The only thing I'd warn you about is that if your goal is to get something hand-hammered, you won't find much hand-hammering on an HHX. They tend to have a combination of machine hammer marks that are about the size of a penny each and some hand over-hammering. Johan always swore the hand hammering on current model Sabians was just for visual appeal and had little effect on the sound--I don't know if that's true or not, but I do know the cymbals are machine shaped and computer hammered, then hand-hammered a little bit.

I don't see a reason to care about all of that, though. The cymbals sound wonderful...they have an excellent blend of the sounds you'd look for in an old K--trashiness, a nice stick floating over some dragon's breath, etc., with the things you'd want from a modern cymbal--good response at both low volumes and high volumes, balance, durability, a lower price tag...

I was thinking about this the other day. I am madly, madly in love with my cymbals. I haven't changed the core of my setup in years...12" 70's A hi hats, a 1982 Sabian HH Harvey Mason riveted flat ride (from the days when Sabian hand hammered the crap out of the cymbals), and my 22" Legacy heavy. If someone were to offer me a set of old K's for $1500, I'd pass. I'm not ripping on old K's...I just couldn't leave my cymbals and I'd be afraid to gig $4K worth of cymbals...they'd be wasted on me. I'd keep wishing they were what I already have. So there's my endorsement for Sabian.

[ronnybengt]

its all about passion man.....well written and expressed...

[Will]

Magnus...one more thing about the switch to flats. I think you'll really enjoy playing one. I've stopped using crashes I love my flat so much. I have it on the left side no matter what style of music I play, and I crash the heck out of it.

In my twenties, I thought I should have one cymbal on the set for every occasion so I could play any style of music authentically...be prepared for any situation.

A few years ago, I figured out that it's my approach that determines whether I'm playing appropriately, not my gear. But what is the point of the gear, then? It's the artist's paint. So I had to think seriously about my palette. Using every color didn't really make much sense, and it seems that a lot of my favorite drummers not only had a distinctive timbre in their cymbals, but also lacked several tibres...there are noticeable absences of sound in what they play.

For me, getting rid of crashes and splashes made sense, big cymbals made sense, and riding everything made sense. A mix of dark and wet and dark and dry made sense. Rivets on some stuff made sense.

My most common set-up for my band The Elevator Conspiracy is, from left to right, 12" A hats, a 20" riveted Sabian flat, a 22" Sabian Legacy heavy, a 20.5" riveted Chinese china, and a 27" Chinese china. And what is the point of all this? Of all my cymbals, the 20" riveted flat in the left-hand position, to the exclusion of a crash cymbal, was the most important element for me in getting the palette I needed to create a distinctive sound. If I were primarily a jazz drummer, I don't think my set-up would be that interesting, but outside of traditional jazz, it really makes a statement. Where people would expect to hear a crash, there's a hissy gong sound. It's wild. It does for me what Paiste hi hats and splash cymbals did for Stewart Copeland.

[Magnus]

Hey guys,

Thanks for taking the time to reply so carefully to my query. I feel very reassured now.

ThomasL: Oh, so I've already heard one of your prototypes. That's good! I think I will like this pie.

Will: I find your approach to cymbals interesting - and much like my own. I too want a palette of dry/wet sounds, and I too have got rid of all crashes (well, but one, but that one is rideable - but may go too). Perhaps I should not obsess about handhammering, but thanks for pointing that out.

Thing is, there is also a vintage Paiste 602 18" up for grabs here in Sweden at about the same price. Problem is that the seller of this one has no soundfile for it. I have absolutely no experience at all of Paistes, but I believe that the 602 flats are quite attractive. Size-wise I have no problem with an 18" pie...

/Magnus

[ThomasL]

Magnus, if I remember correctly, you have some old A's. If they are 50s or older they are hand hammered, but of course very different from for example the average modern Agop.

[Will]

If you've got a shot at an 18" 602 flat, take it. If you like it, you own a grail. If you don't and you miss out on the Sabian, you can always sell the 602 for more than you paid for it and have Sabian custom-make a flat to your specifications...they do custom work for anybody and charge the same price as they would for a comparable model at street value...something like half-off retail. With the profit, you might end up with a free cymbal.

[Magnus]

Hi again Thomas and Will,

Thomas: You are correct, I do have some old As. I've been using a small stamp (I am not 100% positive that I've got the stamp varieties right) 1950s 20" A with 8 rivets as main ride so far. However, since I bought an Istanbul Mehmet Mikael Z 20" (@ 1835 grs) I find the A a bit lifeless. The Mikael Z is very washy, almost sprightly, and I kind of like that. I also have a 22" large stamp old A (2750 grs), but this one I've always found a bit too loud and lively, perhaps better suited to louder music than combo jazz, so this one has been residing in the cymbal case for some time. My left side ride is an undersized 18" 1930s-40s A that is extremely nice: dark, lots of stick definition, opens up in a beautiful crash). Hats are 1950s A hats, 14" (@ 735 grs each if I remember correctly). These are sloshy and probably all I could wish for from very light hats.

Will: I've contacted the 602 seller and said that I am interested in buying the 602. Here is a link to the ad with pics: http://vend.se/ad.php?12343 It looks great, but as I said above, I know nought about Paistes - and I would like to reassure myself that this pie is not a reissue or something similar.

Again, a big thank you to both of you for so generously helping me along in this matter so far!

/Magnus

[Will]

Is the price in Krona? Does that make it worth about $350 US?

If so, I think it's a great deal for a black label member of the seven sound set. At the same time, it looks like it's in flawless condition. I'd be worried about playing it...you couldn't get any stick marks on it or mess up the logo. It looks brand new.

If the price is in Euros, it's a rip off.

Even sound unheard, I think you'd be happy with it (if you could bring yourself to gig it). It's one of the most important jazz cymbals ever made.