About to start whackin'...

[Jaye]

Okay...so, with the acquisition of elvinstheman's 22" Zanchi Vibra...my 20" now becomes slightly expendable.

I have always harbored the suspicion that my 20" was actually slightly damaged, and the damage had effected the sound. It's bow is the most severe bow I have ever seen, and it doesn't lay flat on a table....about 2/3 of it is elevated off a flat surface by about 1/8" .

With the 22" to compare it by, I believe I may have been correct in that suspicion.

The 20" is just ALL trash....very, very narrow overtones....very little midrange in this cymbal...and it's decay is very, very, very quick. When crashed, it really sounds like a china ( pretty good china...but I didn't want a china....). It doesn't have enough sustain to ride at all.....

It's stick is OK...that's about all that's really OK with it.

Now, before I start taking a few whacks at it...I just wanted to confirm a few things which I have gleaned from this particular section of the site. Please, if you have experience with hammering, correct me if I'm wrong, or expand where necessary:

1) hammering the edges will increase the trashiness of a cymbal.

2) hammering the body of the cymbal, away from edge but below the bell, is what will increase the midrange overtones of the cymbal.

3) if I want to try to get a little more sustain out of it, or at least slow the rate of decay, I should : ___________________

4a) hammering the top of the cymbal will result in a different...um, result.... than hammering the bottom....true/false?

4b) I should hammer the: ~top ~bottom

5) it's pretty old (c. mid 60's) , and pretty thin....so I should be prepared that it may crack.

6) After initial hammering, I should not hammer it a second time until:

a) one week has passed, to allow it to settle

b) two weeks have past, to allow it to settle.

Feedback appreciated. Thanks.

[logdrum]

Jaye,

Sustain is either from the tension of the metal surface and/or the mass of the area past the bell before the bow. There is only so much you can do. I'd heat the cymbal over so quickly with a low temp butane torch (for sweating copper pipes). Just 3 to 4 passes on the top make sure the bronze doesn't alter its color. Then after a couple of days .. Listen if the tempering it has helped some . If not I'd hammer it from below - concentric circles about 2-4 layers after the bridge (the transition from bell to the main body of the cymbal). Be careful not to hit the bridge ands start at least 1/2 inch away from it.

This is from my experience in trying to create trash out of an uninteresting 16 medium trash. When I hammered this way -- it sustained even longer and what I wanted was a quick decay and trash.

DISCLAIMER. I cannot guarantee you'll get the same results. Please make sure you have the proper anvil and a grounded hammer. Wear gloves and safety glasses. I'd talk to Mike Skiba as he knows much better.

Good luck

Noel

[geo]

Okay, first off let's go with the assumption that advice given on this part of the site carries the usual results disclaimer:

[ QUOTE ]
It's bow is the most severe bow I have ever seen, and it doesn't lay flat on a table....about 2/3 of it is elevated off a flat surface by about 1/8"

[/ QUOTE ]

That cymbal is bent. Whether that's bad or good is all a matter of sound and taste. It's very hard to shape a cymbal accurately by hand hammering. Basically, if you hammer the top, the cymbal flattens, if you hammer the bottom the cymbal bows. That is an oversimplification, other factors are the shape of the anvil, and how you hold the cymbal against it, and where you strike in relation to the anvil. In other words, you can bend a right angle into the cymbal if you want by holding the cymbal up at a 45 degree angle to the anvil; but that would just give the cymbal a bent up piece of metal sound. So it seems you are trying to bring the cymbal back into shape not by bending it some more. Logdrum's suggestion of heating it up a bit may have some merit, but my experience is that it doesn't always give you more sustain. Heating it may be a starting point, but I tend to save heat for a later stage to kind of level out my hammering.

Hammering around the bridge can cause drastic shape changes. It should be done slowly and thoughtfully, also lightly. It could take your bent cymbal and change it into an infinity symbol, if done just the wrong way. So I would try to determine through observation from where the mishape eminates. It may be further toward the edge.

[ QUOTE ]
1) hammering the edges will increase the trashiness of a cymbal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it lowers the pitch of the wash and crash. Trash seems to come from another place, but it does dry it out a little.

[ QUOTE ]
2) hammering the body of the cymbal, away from edge but below the bell, is what will increase the midrange overtones of the cymbal.

[/ QUOTE ]

So far that has been my experience.


[ QUOTE ]
3) if I want to try to get a little more sustain out of it, or at least slow the rate of decay, I should :

[/ QUOTE ]

Hammer the top midway between the bridge and the bow, but very lightly with the cymbal flat on the anvil.


[ QUOTE ]
4a) hammering the top of the cymbal will result in a different...um, result.... than hammering the bottom....true/false?

[/ QUOTE ]

True. But hard to qualify the result other than in terms of shape.

[ QUOTE ]
4b) I should hammer the: ~top ~bottom

[/ QUOTE ]

No way to tell, I'd have to see the cymbal up close.

[ QUOTE ]
5) it's pretty old (c. mid 60's) , and pretty thin....so I should be prepared that it may crack.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only time I have cracked them is when using overly heavy hammers and hitting hard trying to drastically bend the shape.

[ QUOTE ]
6) After initial hammering, I should not hammer it a second time until:

[/ QUOTE ]

The longer the better.

[Jaye]

[ QUOTE ]
So I would try to determine through observation from where the mishape eminates. It may be further toward the edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

The misshape occurs about 2/3 of the way towards the edge (i.e. if you measure the distance from base of bell to edge, the misshape is closer to the edge than the bell/bridge by a 2:1 ratio). The "bend" is radial, going with the shape of the cymbal, for about 1/3 of it's circumference. D'oh !...that's why that portion of the cymbal touches the table sooner.

Thanks a lot guys, keep it comin'...still would love to hear from Popo and RaBe...or anyone else out there.....

Oh...what is a good hammer weight ? My understanding is to use a ball peen hammer with the ball end grinded "flat" slightly...yar ?

I have a good anvil.

[geo]

From your description I would tend to say hammer the top right at the radius that the bend begins to alter the shape. The unknown part is how this will affect the sound. If you are able to hammer it gently back into shape and don't play it for a week or two, then you can really begin to think about tuning up the sound.

[Jaye]

Hi again...first, I want to add some comments I got from RaBe via PM...just to have it recorded here for future viewers:

[ QUOTE ]
trying to bring the cymbal back into shape seems like a very good idea. That alone may increase sustain already. Having succeded there, you then may want to work on the profile. Hammering from the top will flatten the bow some, resulting in lower pitch. Take your time. Take a round or two of slight blows on the bow then wait for a couple of days. You can always do more later. Before and after recordings may also help to check if you are heading in the right direction.

[/ QUOTE ]

...and some from Popo.....

[ QUOTE ]
as far as the warpage its hard to say how it affects the sound without actually seeing/hearing the cymbal...you'll have to make that call yourself....I dont know if your warpage is really enough to make the difference you claim???
I'd be careful about trying to hammer it back into shape; go real slow and think it out before you hammer...after a certain amount of hammering the cymbal gets really outa shape it'll be a problem to get it to lay flat again, unless you have the right tools (english wheel,lathe and alot of experience in hammering) ...
you'll see when you get your cymbal back ....I dont have a english wheel or the experience to get it to look like a factory job....
I'd say what Geo says about hammering is a pretty good guideline to follow.....
one important factor to me is the size of the pie also affects the way you hammer and also the shape of the bow..
I did a 10" splash a little while ago and by hammering the bottom at the midway point tween the bell and the edge increased to sustain and increased the frequency...this would increase the bow curve if hammered heavily...I only did a light hammer job about 20 medium strength whacks around the pie..on a larger pie this may not have had the same effect because of the bow curve,thickness, alloy etc...
another thing about bow curves is the rate of curvature ....some increase the curve as you closer to the edge....some have a fairly constant curve ..
what I'm saying is there are so many factors that come into play when tuning a pie...
I once watched this master of coppersmithing use his feet in shaping a copper frying pan....his work interested me since it is very similar to what we are trying to acomplish....
I think the best thing is to practice on a cymbal you are willing to sacrifice....experience is the only way....I remember I was scared to make that first blow but we all gotta start somewhere...
So, bottom line is to hammer and rest it at least a few days before hammering again...but you just got to do it..
hey you may even do it better than us??? then we'll send you our cymbals....
....I hope I made some sense ???

[/ QUOTE ]

[Jaye]

OK, so here's where it is now. I took the plunge and started hammering yesterday.

1) I tried my best to locate where the bend in the bow is. Looking at the cymbal, it appeared to be between 9 and 12 o'clock, about 2/3 towards the edge and away from the bell. I took about 3 rounds of whacks at that area, turning the cymbal atop the anvil. About ten whacks per round.

After the first, second, and third rounds...there appeared to be no change whatsoever in the shape of the pie. It still doesn't lay flat on a table. I decided to stop pursuing that avenue for a while.

2) I then decided to take everyone's advice here, regarding hammering between the bell/bridge and edge. Logdrum, Geo, Rabe, Popo all pretty much agreed on that aspect.

So I took 2 rounds of hammering around the entire pie, equidistant between edge and bridge, turning the pie on the anvil and giving about 18 whacks per round.

3) I put it in my closet for the night.

4) mounted it today.....IT SEEMS TO BE WORKING ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

The pie has more sustain, and there definitely is some more tone to it...I can actually hear pitches now...where before there was just trashhhhhhhh. It is riding much better...oddly, it's crash still sounds pretty much the same..very china-y with a fast decay. But riding is producing a better sound than before....

Everyone suggested letting it settle for at least a few days, so that's what I'm gonna do now.

[geo]

Cool /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Seb]

[ QUOTE ]

I took 2 rounds of hammering around the entire pie, equidistant between edge and bridge, turning the pie on the anvil and giving about 18 whacks per round.

3) I put it in my closet for the night.

4) mounted it today.....IT SEEMS TO BE WORKING ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

The pie has more sustain, and there definitely is some more tone to it...I can actually hear pitches now...where before there was just trashhhhhhhh. It is riding much better...

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting - did you hammer it from the top or the bottom?

[Jaye]

Based on Geo's advice, I hammered the top only. Now rereading these posts, I am wondering if I should try hitting the bottom next time around...both logdrum and popo mention that.

I think I am gonna make one more try at reducing the bend/warpage in this.

I did something interesting today (maybe I should have done it before I started whackin'). I took a straightedge and placed it atop the cymbal surface; one end at the bridge, the other end at the edge, and took a look at the "negative space" betwen the edge of the straightedge and the surface of the pie.

I picked 6 points along the cymbal to do this (i.e. when viewed from top, divided the "circle" into 6 equal "slices") and compared the results.

I discovered the cymbal is pretty uniform regarding bow/profile. The rate of curvature, as Popo mentioned, increases dramatically as you near the edge of the pie...it is not at all uniform from bridge to edge. I do not believe this to be the damage, actually...I believe this to be the original bow of the pie...as 5 of the 6 locations seemed to have almost exactly this same profile.

The 6th location, however, was way off. There was a significant "dip" in the body (i.e. the surface seemed "pushed in" at that point) . I'm talking like 3/16". And this location also had a less dramatic bow to it (makes sense, if you think about it...right ?)


...um...right...?

I am figuring, here is the damaged/warped area.

1) if the body is "pushed in"...I may try hammering from bottom to "push it back out" and make it more similar to the other 5 profiles.

Based on what folks have said here...if I hammer the bottom in this spot, the bow may increase and it's possible that this may bring the cymbal edges into greater uniformity with each other (?) (more edge may touch the table at once).

Or I dunno.....maybe I just need to get a real life.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[popo]

jaye ,,,you might try setting it up on wood blocks and use pressure to eliminate the warpage....as you say that area seems "pushed in"??? then you can hammer to get the sound you want...
I used this method to work on the china at one point...remember about the guy who makes copper pans??? he used this method quite frequently in working the copper sheets......
good to hear you have achieved some success....keep on...
aloha

[Jaye]

Popo...how do I do that...the wood blocks thing ? I have definitely located the area of deformity....and I cannot hammer it back out.

~When running my finger along the top, from mount hole to edge....right at the bridge of the bell, the cymbal pops up a little, then immediately after (as I move my finger outwards towards the edge) it "indents" down, then gradually swoops back up to meet the cymbal's original shape by the time I am halfway towards the edge.

How do I "apply pressure"? Do I put blocks beneath the indent and bend down on the top of the cymbal ?

Or do I turn the cymbal upside-down, and push the blocks back and forth along the indent while applying pressure (much the way one can remove small dings from their car fender ) ?

Lemme know... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif