General Cleaning Questions from a Newbie to the Forum

[jsegovia]

Hi, and welcome to me. I used to drum a bit in the '80s and had a nice Ludwig kit and a full set of Zildjian As. I've just bought a Tama Starclassic Performer kit and again, a full set of As, though this time with one K Custom. I've just started reading the forum and I hope no one minds if I ask a few questions about cymbal cleaning.

1) I see that some folks on the forum don't clean or polish their cymbals - is this common? With my old set I used to get my bottle of Zildjian cymbal cleaner and an old t-shirt and really go at them, especially my ride. That thing would shine like a brand new cymbal when I was done, and I don't remember thinking the sound was getting any worse.

2) All my current cymbals are brand new out of the box, so to speak, except for an 8" splash and 18" China High, which were beat up a bit at the store. Using Paiste cymbal cleaner I cleaned up the splash, 'though it doesn't shine like the newer cymbals, but even with just a little elbow grease I've noticed the Zildjian logo lightening up quite a bit - a few more cleanings and that thing'll be gone. Is it common to remove the lettering even with mild cleaning?

3) What's the best way to remove stick marks and general dullness from the China?

Thanks very much in advance.

Jesse

[Matt]

I will clean cymbals once when they are new to get the protective coating off. Then they have the change to grow patina. You may notice that the sound doesn't get worse with cleaning, but does it get better? I don't care about stick marks or fingerprints. I have found that when cymbals have enough patina, they don't show the stick marks as well. And who doesn't like the dark brown colour?
If you have brilliant finished cymbals, they will look better if they are shiny and don't look good if they are aged. I will never get brilliant finish for that reason. Don't clean your cymbals and let them age naturally. This philosophy protects your cymbals and gives you less work. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[xaviar13]

Jesse,

Welcome to the forum! Cleaning is a personal decision with all cymbals. Especially new ones.
However, the brownish patina that develops on the cymbal is generally considered to be a good thing. It protects the cymbal by providing a buffer against further oxidation. An example would be comparing a new penny to an old penny. Once it turns dark brown it is protected from further oxidation. Bronze also turns dark brown when it oxidizes. Oxidation eats into the metal just a little bit each time fresh bronze is exposed to moisture in the air. So leaving the protective oxidized layer protects the cymbal.

The bronze "patina" over time becomes like an outer crust which stabilizes the cymbal. When I've compared a cymbal with patina to one of the same general age and make the patinaed cymbal seems to sound darker and smokier with less highs. The patina seems to take off some of the brightness or edge.
Labels are the same personal decision as cleaning. Some folks on this forum go to great lengths to get all their logos off as soon as they buy a new cymbal.

[jsegovia]

[ QUOTE ]
I will clean cymbals once when they are new to get the protective coating off. Then they have the change to grow patina.

[/ QUOTE ]
What is patina, exactly? Is it just dust and oil and what naturally builds up on anything or is it something unique to cymbals?

Jesse

[Matt]

Patina is the crust of oxidized metal on the cymbal. It is similar to rust. Read Xaviar's post again; he explained exactly what is does and why it is good.

[jsegovia]

[ QUOTE ]
However, the brownish patina that develops on the cymbal is generally considered to be a good thing. It protects the cymbal by providing a buffer against further oxidation. An example would be comparing a new penny to an old penny. Once it turns dark brown it is protected from further oxidation. Bronze also turns dark brown when it oxidizes. Oxidation eats into the metal just a little bit each time fresh bronze is exposed to moisture in the air. So leaving the protective oxidized layer protects the cymbal.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks very much for the reply. This makes a lot of sense.

So in order to protect this patina, do we even want to wipe off our cymbals after we use them?

Oh, and by the way, does this forum send email notifications if threads you're watching get new replies?

Jesse

[xaviar13]

Jesse,

No idea about your forum question. Never tried it.

Patina will naturally develop on the cymbal over time. Wiping them down will not harm the patina at all. Wiping them down with cleaner will. But again its all a matter of preference I like mine looking aged but not dirty. I do use soap and water and occasionally a little vinegar and salt to get off cruddy spots on pies I've just gotten. I got one pie in once from ebay that had some junk stuck all over the top of it. I think it was tobacco juice all over it. Drummer who had it before me must have spit all over it some people abuse their gear. But in this case the cymbal had a nice patina that I wanted to keep so a little salt and vinegar later I had gotten the crud off left the patina on.

If you want your looking clean then shine them up. We are not talking about a lot of metal eaten by the oxidation process to make the patina.

Cymbals from the different companies also age differently. I've got some Paistes that I've had for over 10 years that are almost as shiny as when I got them. The area where I keep putting fingerprints is changing color but the rest might have changed only a shade or two. Some are even coming pre-aged from the factory like the Sabian AA Raw Ride, the Zildjian pre-aged ride and of the Istanbul Turk series. No idea what they do to get them looking like that. To me those seem more like a baked on crust than patina.

I'm going to become the patina novelest if I keep this up. sorry for the book.

[CHADMIN]

I'll comment more on the "baked-in"..or "pre-aged" patina that Mike mentioned later....(Mike, you are closer than you think...it pretty much is a result of the baking...tempering process)

But to address Jesse's forum question, scroll down to the very bottom of the page and look down in the lower left area for a small link called "Favorite Topic! (toggle)"

If you click that, it will add the thread to your "favorite threads" list (that you can edit in your My Home area) and should email you when someone replies to the thread. Give it a try.

[Ptrick]

[ QUOTE ]
Some are even coming pre-aged from the factory like the Sabian AA Raw Ride, the Zildjian pre-aged ride and of the Istanbul Turk series. No idea what they do to get them looking like that. To me those seem more like a baked on crust than patina.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not to cut you off Chad /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif, but I will add that what Mike was referring to as Patina in the Turks and Raw ride is actually the crust of the cymbal as it appears before lathing...so it is not actually a "patina" at all, just the raw crust of the cymbal. The Zildjian "pre-aged" series was nothing more than a marketing ploy, I've been told.

[CHADMIN]

Thanks Patrick....yep, what you said.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[JazzMe]

[ QUOTE ]
The Zildjian "pre-aged" series was nothing more than a marketing ploy, I've been told.

[/ QUOTE ]

HA! I always though this was a whole bunch of marketing garbage! But didn't Zildjian claim that these were sort of "baked" through an ultra freezing process?

Come on Patrick, listen to Grand Master Z and experience the pre-aged "Unique more "played-in" sound. Dry and mellow stick sound wth beautiful warm undertones". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[adam]

my personal preference is to never clean my cymbals, in fact I usually buy a cymbal with the fact that its going to get dirty in mind, and I picture it as such. For me a cymbal never really finds it personality untill it gets dirty. I kinda cringe at the site of a brilliant finish cymbal and just think to myself..."hmmmm that one would be alot of work..." Think of it like women I guess hahaha. I used to joke with some buddies of mine in college that we would buy our cymbals and bury them in our backyards for a month to get that "sound" out of them, although I think that would be quite extreme lol. So I will most definitly play and handle my cymbals alot with no fear of oils from my hands, dirt ect getting on them. This is very theoretical but I like to think (in my own crazy head anyways) that all the oils from your hand and dirt combined with alot of regular playing will find those unbalanced areas on the cymbal and kind of....balance it. its only my wacky theory. Let those cymbals become who they really are inside, let them age baby!!! Cheers all!
Adam :-)

[bibfortuna]

i love the look of a set of heavily hammered shiny cymbals under stage lights. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

so, i not only hate patina for the look, but also how it might affect the sound of a cymbal. i bought it for a certain sound, and i wouldnt want it to change.

from what i've used Groove Juice is great for getting rid of stick marks. it will take the logos right off of your pies, but for your Sabian pies, you could get the logo reapplier.

funny story, but i heard a well known Sabian endorser has his drum tech do this with a few of the Bosphorus / Istanbul Agop cymbals in his live stash. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

FYI, the paiste cleaner is by far the most gentle cleaner out there. pretty much dish soap in a bottle. but keep in mind, Paiste cymbals have their own special coating that needs to be reapplied with their "Protector" to keep them from discoloring.

[Kanbasher]

[ QUOTE ]
funny story, but i heard a well known Sabian endorser has his drum tech does this with his Bosphorus / Istanbul Agop cymbals he uses live. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...what's the point of having an endorsement if one doesn't even use the gear? Seems to defeat the whole purpose. That's also messed up. I'm sure Sabian would just be thrilled to hear about that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[bibfortuna]

well, i'm sure its not like he/she hates their Sabes. but sometimes, as most gear heads we are, a particular cymbal that's not kosher to your stash, will catch our fancy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[sspercussion]

I use a blend of light oil on my traditional finished cymbals - it's a proprietory blend that feels like baby oil. The stuff is incredible, keeps the sheen, retards finger prints and stick marks, and protects the metal as oil should. Very thin - not dripping wet. Metal loves oil, it's a natural preservative. I originally got the stuff from a cymbalsmith in the Carolina's. To this day I am still trying to figure it out to make my own. I would never apply a cleaner to my metal with the same instructions as automotive wheel cleaner....leave it on then rinse it off - oh boy. Not. I've seen drum techs use a really good dish soap and water, then a thin coating of a mystery oil before storing the instrument for the next gig.

Just for the heck of it, I also found an incredible spray on - wipe off polish and protector for drumkits as well. Found out about it at NAMM - it's what Pearl was using on their Masterworks kit for the show - called "brillianize". Dust will not even adhere to the laquer after using this stuff. A few guitarists are using it too - keeps there equipment looking like the day they bought it. Check it out at www.brillianize.com (http://www.brillianize.com) - sorry I don't have any link for the cymbal stuff - wish I did. If I find out what's in it I'll post it in the future.