20" Paiste Traditional Light Flat Ride

[mkdrums]

I went cymbal shopping yesterday determined to give myself a reward for overtime I've been putting in at the job . I had tried a used 18" A Zildjian Flat at a local shop a few weeks prior that I really liked but it had been sold . Among the other flats in the store was a 20" Paiste Traditional Light Flat with the older etched logo . I was quickly impressed with the feel and the sound - a light woody stick and a light sizzle as if it had rivets ( it isn't riveted ). I have heard other cymbals described as sounding like a "light rain" - that's exactly the impression I got . I played a few other Trads including a nice newer medium-heavy 20" at the opposite end of the weight spectrum but I decided on the flat as it would be playable for practice in my small apartment as well as being a good small combo ride . I had made my choice but I was afraid the price might be too steep . It turned out the etched flat wasn't a used cymbal as I thought - it had been sitting in the shop unsold for years . I negotiated a very good price and went home happy . I took it out to play last night where I rehearse with friends and found it a joy to play . It works very nicely with a sizzle chain but I found I liked it best "au natural" . It is not a loud cymbal but I was able to use it on a variety of music styles . For jazz it was superb and also it had a beautiful sound played with Regal Tip Whiskers , nylon brushes that help me play at controlled dynamic levels . It blended nicely with my 17" Trad Thin Crash and a 16" Prototype that looks and plays like a Traditional . I also put up an 18" Dimensions Light Ride to the side of it for playing bell patterns . The only drawback to the flat ride is my tendancy to go for the "bell" that isn't there but I'll get used it . The sound of the flat is worth the absence of a bell .

[HonenShonin]

Very nice review, and a nice cymbal, apparently!

I'm seriously considering picking up a flat myself, but I am also a bit worried about the "phantom bell" phenomenon you describe. Let us know how long it takes to get used to it.

[mkdrums]

I was just looking around the Paiste website artist set-ups to see who might use this ride and with what other cymbals . Paul Wertico has one and mounts a small cup chime on top . I might try a small effects cymbal of some sort mounted piggyback on the flat if I really want another sound where my hand might wander. Thanks for checking out my review - I'd have too many posts if I reviewed every cymbal I get but this one deserves some praise .

[bilkay]

You'll easily get used to not having the bell.

And, not to derail the thread, but the Signature and Alpha flats are awesome, as well. I also have a ('70s?) 2002 black label that I'll NEVER part with!

[Matt]

One of my first cymbals was a flat, so I was used to no bell early on. But I never used the bells much on my belled rides.

[mkdrums]

- well it only took a weekend to get used to lack of a bell . I think once I became aware of what I was doing any problem vanished .
Just a little addition - after trying numerous sticks on it I like to play it with Promark SD4 "Bill Bruford" maple sticks . They work very nicely with the flat both for feel and sound .
I've heard lots of nice things about the other Paiste flat rides and will check them out when I have the chance . I used to enjoy playing one of my teacher's rides quite a bit which was a 20" Paiste Formula 602 Medium Flat Ride . It was a bit more "pingy" and crystalline in sound as I recall . I'd really like one of those too but all in good time .

[bilkay]

Speaking of both Bruford and sticks, Bruford is currently using a 20" Sig flat with Earthworks and you should try the ProMark Michael Carvin sticks with it, too (or any small, round bead).

[mkdrums]

thanks for the "tip" on tips . Actually I have a pair of the Michael Carvin sticks and tried them too . Very nice sound option on the flat and pretty much any of my rides . I've been prefering maple sticks lately though . The Carvins are always in my stick bag though and have been for a couple of years .
I have Bill Bruford and Earthworks "Random Acts Of Happiness" and his sound is an influence on my playing . I like his drumming on "If Summer Had It's Ghosts" with Ralph Towner and Eddie Gomez too . I can hear the Sig Flat quite a bit on the Earthworks disc - very good recording .

[bilkay]

If you don't have Footloose and Fancy Free (CD) or Footloose in NYC (DVD) get one or the other or both! ABSOLUTELY AMAZING live performances (better, I think, than Random Acts.... And to watch Bruford play.......the apparent effortlessness.......AAAAHHHHH!

[mkdrums]

I plan to get the "Footloose" titles on either cd or the dvd - I was looking for them when I found only "Random Acts ..." .
I'd really like to see how Bruford plays that hi-hat in the center , kind of a symetrical lay-out . I've been practicing with a ride ( now the flat ride )in the center with hats in the "normal" spot . I'll order the dvd soon if I don't find it in any store . thanks again - mike

[Gongman]

Speaking of Bruford, also check out the 2 releases he has with young Dutch pianist Michiel Borstlap: Every Step A Dance, Every Word A Song (CD) & In Concert In Holland (DVD w/CD). Both are great, with Bill playing mostly improvisations with Borstlap who's a fantastic player. The DVD has a lot of great shots of Bill and his Paiste's sound great on both! His bent up Trad Swish is such a great sounding cymbal. The music is somewhat reminiscent of the old Bruford/Moraz recordings.

Both are available from Bill Bruford (http://billbruford.com)

[tomc_020]

Sounds awesome man.
My Traditionals Medium Heavy ride should be here on Friday, I can't wait. It should go well with my 18" Traditionals Thin crash.

Tom

[mkdrums]

thanks for the Bruford link Gongman ! I've got a few things to check out now . -mk

[TheDibes]

His bent up Trad Swish is such a great sounding cymbal.....

Gongman, I thought he used a 20" Medium Swish China? What cymbal is he using on this DVD?

[bilkay]

Bruford is using the same cymbals on the Earthworks and Borstlap DVDs- 20" Sig flat, 16" Trads thin crash, 18" Dimensions dry ride, and the 20" Trads medium swish.

And he has REALLY beaten the crap out of that thing!

[Elvis]

MKdrums,

I use a 20 Dimensions Light Ride as my "main" and was wondering how you're doing with matching that 20" Trad Flat with your 18" Dim. Lt. Ride?
Do you get a nice constrast or do they seem to clash?

Elvis

[mkdrums]

[ QUOTE ]
MKdrums,

I use a 20 Dimensions Light Ride as my "main" and was wondering how you're doing with matching that 20" Trad Flat with your 18" Dim. Lt. Ride?
Do you get a nice constrast or do they seem to clash?

Elvis

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Elvis -
I've had no problem with the 18" Dimensions Light Ride clashing with the Trad Light Flat . There's a slight trashiness to the Dimensions that blends with the Traditionals mix very well . It's a bright contrast as well as having a nice bell sound when I want that . So it ranges to brighter sounds but shares certain qualities too . The 18" Dimensions Light Ride also has a great crash sound that goes well with the 17" Trad Thin Crash I got about a month ago - again , an overlap of frequency mixes but not a clash . I guess I'm mixing the Signature and B8 alloys a la Bruford but have picked my own mix . The hats I'm using are mixed alloys - B8 top / Sig bottom , 12" Noise Works Paper Splash Hats . They are the fastest hats I've ever played . The top is extremely thin and flexible and responds well to slight changes in foot pressure , foot splashes etc. . It just turns inside out from heavy footed players . I'm a big fan despite that tendancy after having these hats a year or so .
Since it came up as part of this thread I have found that the Bill Bruford "Borstlap" dvd is sold-out at his website unfortunately . I'm going to get the "Footloose and Fancy Free in NY" dvd which is still available but autographed copies are sold-out .
peace - mk

[ivmike]

I think that it was Captain Crunch that initially said that "Paistes always seem to get along with each other". I'd chime in that even with different alloys, they get along.

[CaptainCrunch]

I don't know if it was me or the booze talking. Don't remember.

And yeah, Luwig Standard hats, a Rude crash, and a Sig Flat will all have that "Paiste-ness", whatever it is. If they would bottle it, I would drink it.

[bradybunch]

that's why i switched. i got sick of finding out that zild and sabs that i threw into my bag didn't blend well. they were all good sounding cymbals, great even, but i had to put way too much thought into the set up. i can be sure a 602 flat will mix with a dark energy ride, or a dimensions 19 crash will be fine with an old sound creation bright ride. i still miss a lot of my zildjian stuff, but with the dimensions, i'm getting closer to the vibe and sound. and now when i travel, i don't have to worry about replacing anything or beating up a great zildjian. a customs are fine, but the rest of the line is so inconsistent.


anyway..... time to go to the gig.....

[Elvis]

Mk,

Thanks for the quick response. I enjoyed reading your comments.

Geez, either you guys are after something completely different, or I'm just a picky ol' b@$t@rd /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I actually had great luck in mixing my old Zildjian/Sabian setup, because those cymbals have always shared a very "familial" sound.
Paiste does to, but only with itself.
It's the lack of dirt that mostly separates it from the Turkish types.

However, MK, how do you make that 18" Dim light ride work with a 17" Trad Thin crash?!

I've owned Trad's in 18 and 17 thin and even a 15 X-tra Thin and I could never make 'em work.
The accent was always so subdued. It was actually a drop in presence and pitch.
That's why I'm looking for an 18" Inno Thin.
It's brighter than the Dim ride, so that accent can stand out (after all, isn't that why it's an accent to begin with?) but it shares the same cleanliness, warmth and mellowness of the Dimensions.

My 22" Standard ride just doesn't work with anything I have right now. It's all ping over a "wispfully breathy wash".

Glad to hear you're making the Flat Ride work, MK.
I'll have to look into that one.
I'm torn between a Flat Ride or a small crash right now, as my "3rd cymbal".
...aw heck, I'll probably do both, eventually, and just run a 4 cymbal set...wait, that's what I started with 5 years ago!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Elvis

[mkdrums]

- It all boils down to personal preferences as to whether one cymbal sounds good with another (and how many to have,and how to position,etc.). I have to admit I am not as picky as some drummers . Elvis - if you know a shop with a lot of cymbals in stock to try out you'll solve your "3rd cymbal" vacancy . I've noticed a little of what you're saying about the Traditional Thin Crashes - After playing the 17" Trad Thin in a very loud improv jam/recording last night it did lack a little bit of cut but still sounded good - especially rolling with mallets . Had I known who would be showing up to play I might have brought different cymbals . I ended up playing the 20" Trad Light Flat with the butt end of my Bruford sticks to get a bigger sound from it . I listened to a quick playback from a friend recording us and was happy to hear the ride clear through all the amplification . I even discovered a great shoulder-crash potential in the Flat I hadn't expected . I'll probably have a better opinion of my latest mix of Paistes after I get a copy of last night's recording to scrutinize .

[Elvis]

[ QUOTE ]
...Elvis - if you know a shop with a lot of cymbals in stock to try out you'll solve your "3rd cymbal" vacancy...

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a plethora of shops around here, it's just that I'm whittling my cymbal choices down to the point to where no one stocks any of what I'm looking for (like the Wuhan Drumset cymbals, the 20" Trad Flat Ride or the 15" Orchestral "crash").
Thus I need to order things at this point...a very expensive way to do it, but I guess I'll do what I have to...I can always have something to eat next month. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Elvis

[mkdrums]

Hi Elvis -
I almost hate to suggest ebay as an alternative to ordering new cymbals but it should be cheaper if you're careful and patient .
In retail music shops there is a bit of price flexibility on items in stock , less flexibility if special ordering . But a "no reserve" auction on ebay is potentially the best bargain .
Using ebay I got the 18" Dimensions Light Ride for $79 . It was barely played . Someone bought it then decided it was "too light" . Many of my ebayed cymbals were far less expensive than the same items in retail shops . I still go to stores though for the occasional gem found in the "used bin" or , like the Trad Light Flat , a cymbal that the store wants to move to display a newer product with a better mark-up for them . In the case of the Flat , I had already chosen it for it's sound - the price was discussed later .
Good Luck .

[ivmike]

eBay is a great place for Paistes (due to their consistency). I've scored a Sound Creations Mellow Ride NOS for $150 and a brand new 2002 Novo for $125 among others.

[acidbran]

Agreed, I just got my 22"trad. light for almost half the price of a new one and it was just like new.
No prints or marks of any kind.
I saved over $130. at any online or brick and mortar store.

Just have to be careful about who you bid with.

[Elvis]

Thanks for the E-prey advice, people.
I'm definately keeping an eye out there, too.
So far, nothing that I'm looking for has come up.

However, thanks for reminding me...I've got a couple of cymbals and some hardware I wanna dump.
I've been meaning to E-Bay them for a while now.

Elvis

[remixr]

What would Paiste's loudest flat ride be? I know flat rides aren't supposed to be loud but I'm just curious which would be the most rock oriented cymbal. The 20" Signature?

[Kanbasher]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that it was Captain Crunch that initially said that "Paistes always seem to get along with each other". I'd chime in that even with different alloys, they get along.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree to this as I have always matched up different cymbals from the various Paiste lines and they seem to always work well together. Magic I tell ya!

[ivmike]

[ QUOTE ]
What would Paiste's loudest flat ride be? I know flat rides aren't supposed to be loud but I'm just curious which would be the most rock oriented cymbal. The 20" Signature?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check out the 2002 Flat, the Sig Flat, and the Alpha Flat.

[Matt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What would Paiste's loudest flat ride be? I know flat rides aren't supposed to be loud but I'm just curious which would be the most rock oriented cymbal. The 20" Signature?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check out the 2002 Flat, the Sig Flat, and the Alpha Flat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are these cymbals discontinued? They are no longer on the Paiste website.

[ivmike]

I just noticed that too...weird. Call them at 1-800-4PAISTE and they can tell you.

[remixr]

[ QUOTE ]
I just noticed that too...weird. Call them at 1-800-4PAISTE and they can tell you.

[/ QUOTE ]
They said no. It's just the 18" and 20" Traditional flats left. Paiste seem to discontinue everything I'm interested in.

[ivmike]

I'll bet that they still have New-Old-Stock. Convince your local drum shop to order a couple and see what happens. Also, there's an Alpha Flat ride on eBay right now.

[remixr]

They're trying to find one for me right now.

[remixr]

I got one suckas. A 20" Signature flat. Yes!

[Kanbasher]

I recently got an Alpha flat from Gerry Porter. It's nice. I like it more than a Sig flat. I'm no flat ride authority however. He has/had a Sound Creation flat that was to die for. That was really nice!